The Successful Black Woman vs The Independent Black Woman

I've really only received responses from women but I'm glad Treyningday.com replied! Pretty awesome blog...check it out.

Is there not a difference between a "Successful Black Woman"(SBW) and an "Independent Black Woman"(IBW). For me saying I am a "Successful Black Woman" means yes, I'm educated and have had success in various parts of my life. For me to label myself as an "Independent Black Woman" the connotation is I want to be independent and I'm paying for myself. Successful, in my mind, is a fact of the matter, independent has a prideful connotation which often comes off as "I don't need a man!" <----NOT what I was describing in my recent blogs, but a point I'd like to bring up for those who find the two descriptions synonymous.  A prime example is Michelle Obama (go to for every Black female nowadays) as an SBW. She doesn't portray herself as an IBW by any means. She LOVES her husband, and is capable of doing all her wifely/motherly duties while flawlessly exemplifying her success without seeming weak or submissive. With that being said, ladies be careful how you portray yourself, SBW or IBW. We are quick to go through a break-up or have some boy piss us off and tweet "N.A.S." or "I can be happy all by myself, I don't need a man to make me happy."

Also, this thing of "picking and choosing" keeps coming up, but I'm not sure what we're picking and choosing. If I'm letting go of the inferior, under-educated history of the female? Is education my cake? I'm not asking you to do anything different. I just want to still be treated like my dad and my granddaddies treated their wives. Bite the bullet fellas, there are some things that you have to endure because you're a man. For example, boys never are supposed to hit girls, men are expected to be able to lift heavy things, women want YOU to ask them out explicitly (we may suggest it but it's on YOU to do "the ask"), and regardless of whether she's making 5 times your salary, you should pay on the first date  (Note: the First Date should be out in public, not your dorm, apartment, or house).

Yeah, there are IBW who value their education and accomplishments more than relationships and love. They aren't going to let you give up your seat or open the door for them, and may be offended by your offer. Some may even WANT to have dates at the house instead of taking them out. As stated numerous times, "communication is key." But we SBW would still appreciate the benefit of the doubt that we want you to be traditional, chivalrous, whatever you'd like to call it. We would hate for acquisition of higher education should to shadow our desire to be treated "like a lady".

Response to @BigVince84's rebuttal

BigVince,

I appreciate your response but in an effort to create an on going discussion about the topic, I'd like to respond and expand on our blogs. My first rebuttal was not meant to be defensive, however I did intend to invoke some sort of emotion toward the topic. It's too easy for people to tweet about "Black women choosing education over relationships" and "#yousinglebecause...". But no one really attempts to understand the change in relationship between Black men and women, where the change started, and how we should strive to exist amongst each other. (Disclaimer: These are not limited to Black men or Black women, but it is when I can speak on as a Black female.) 

You disagreed with my observation of a lack of respect and depreciation for Black women. Are you telling me that opening doors, offering your seat, and going "out" on real dates is your way of showing respect of my progress as demographic? Riding the bus to and from class at UNC, I was often left standing while many men sat leisurely checking out my butt which tended to be in their face due to the position we were in. It seems like such a hassle for someone to offer to hold the door or carry my groceries in when I clearly have multiple trips to take. Too often men are willing to invite a girl over for a movie or "to chill" when he's interested in her. <---THIS is the demise of Black courtship and chivalrous love. The "Successful Black Woman" isn't changing this, however the "Successful Black Man" has had a great hand in the changing relationship and dating structure. The idea of "I'm a young, good-looking, educated, Black professional (often times with no kids)" has given men this idea of a golden ticket to be ratchet and reckless with the Black female's feelings and heart. In the past, men did chivalrous things not because women were deemed inferior, but rather because women (and family) were placed on a pedestal and treated with value and care. So opening a door or standing wasn't done because we were inferior and couldn't bear the weight, but rather as a sign of admiration for the other "weight" we haul daily. As for the idea of progress, what exactly is the progress you're alluding to? Is it the progression of "taking a woman on a date" into "having a woman over for sex". Or "offering up your seat" to giving her the option to "sit on your lap"? Just because Black women are acquiring more education and have obtained to ability thrive alone, doesn't mean she'll accept the disrespect offered by the Black man who has "too much going for him" to act chivalrous. 

At the end of the day, there are no "new rules of chivalry" because chivalry is not something that's up for change. There are only new expectations of what dating and relationships should be. The problem is, while Black women are still searching for chivalry, Black males are forcing their "expectations" on us, leaving us with generally two choices: your way or the highway. While some women are willing to accept your new expectations of: dates to your place (occasionally with takeout), sex without commitment, looking good for you to have arm candy, relationships for years with no intent to marry, etcetera, most educated Black women are not willing to be treated like a rental car.  

So now what?

Response to "The Plight of the "Successful" Black Woman..."

Tcoop and BigVince,

While I appreciate the inclusion of your guest blogger, I think that he has left out many important counter-arguments and the explanation of "what Black men REALLY want in a BLACK woman?" In my attempt in a comment, I'll try to recount my thoughts as I read "The Plight of the "Successful" Black Women"

I think if I asked my mom why she expected the door to be opened for her, she'd answer "the door doesn't have to be opened for you, you can open it yourself...but if you find someone who wants to show his appreciation for you, he'd open it to show you his appreciation." Though he explains that 'Chivalrous behavior was a thank you for holding down the home...' this is wrong. Chivalry was, and should be, a sign of appreciation and/or affection. When a man demonstrated chivalrous behavior toward a woman, he didn't know if she was going to "do other stereotypical wifely duties". As a Black woman who blatantly sees the death of chivalry, I see this as a mere side effect of the diminishing respect and appreciation of the (Black) woman as a whole. In the past, men used to open the door for ANY woman, not just the one they are trying to sleep with for the next few months. Standing in order for a lady to sit down was second nature, despite that woman wasn't the woman who was at home cooking you dinner. We are now educated, yes, but we are also still women who deserve to be treated like a valued part of society.

The phrase "Successful Black Woman" appeared as a means of labeling a woman who could rival her "non-minority" counterparts. It's not secret that women are often left to raise families without the help of a male counterpart, specifically in the Black community. These solo moms had to teach their daughters that "You can do anything, HE can do better because, baby, we're survivors." So inevitably the "Single Black Mother" was the prelude to a "Successful Black Woman". But often that phrase has the connotation that we don't know how to be the "Successful Black Wife", which is not the case. We embrace our label "Successful Black Woman" because that's what we are. The pool can't be narrowed because success is a personal achievement, not a general prescription to be given after one has achieved societies ideas of success. Success can be raising a family, making a change in today's youth, or simply making it on your own.

It's easy to make the argument of women one that is based in Black and White. But as with any other Black issue, there's many other factors that make that argument null and void. If we want to talk about the stereotypical white girl in college, we have to look at the culture. She's more than likely in a sorority, founded as a social club. She attends social events put on by her sorority in which her male counterparts are encouraged to ask her to be his date. She accepts or declines based off her interactions with him in class, around campus, or at other events. She knows that it would be ideal to find a husband at school, however if not she can always go back home and work there until such an opportunity arises. Far fewer Black women are involved in sorority life, but I'll speak from the angle in which I am most familiar with. My sorority, as are the majority of other Black sororities, was founded with the mission to better the Black community through public service 'i.e. saving their world') . I was taught that college was higher LEARNING (school) and I wasn't "sent" to college, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to attend and therefore I was expected focus on the sure bet for a "successful" future (education). My college culture (sorority or not) was very different from that of my white classmates except the fact we were receiving the same education. "Letters and numbers" were what you thought I was overwhelmed with because that was all you could see of me. I was overwhelmed with finding a way to nourish my compassion for others and the evident need to "feed" the Black community. Networking and mingling was done with hope of landing a job, not a husband, reason being going back home WAS NOT an option. My college culture was informed by my desired outcome, which was informed by the understanding that college was preparation for work and life, not just marriage.

I've said I've worked too hard to be someone's housewife. But maybe I should have said I've been blessed with too much to not share my talents. Or I should have said that I need the security of knowing I can work, and the resume to support my abilities. Because the truth of the matter is I can make it with or without a "Strong Black Male." I know I have the opportunity (by choice or not by choice), the ability AND the potential to obtain the MEANS to live happily, to be "successful" , and to raise a family. For women who choose to stay at home as a housewife, good for you, but I know if I wanted to, I could do your job AND more.

As for successful black men, we don't think you're afraid of us, intimidated by us, any of that. We just know that we're not getting degrees for you, no, no, baby we're doing that for US. We want the financial stability and freedom that historically you had over us. We would really just appreciate it if you'd stop downing us for our "success" and 1. Get on our level, 2. Show appreciation for ALL BLACK WOMEN, and 3. Understand we're not trying to change the world, we're working to fix the one that is so damaged by our selfish society. It may not matter to you where we're going in our pants suit, but if you don't care, you don't matter to us. The ones that do matter are the "successful MALES" who are willing to support us in our efforts, while showing us he appreciates our grind and our struggle.

"Successful Black Woman" only equals "Single Black Woman" to males who, themselves, feel too inferior to us. We deal with too many struggles being Black and female, to NOT be appreciated by men. Chivalry should not be dead because I'm not at your house doing house work, chivalry is dying because you've lost respect for the women who are helping you get to where you want to be.

Check out the original post at: http://tcoop32.blogspot.com/